Friday, 27 February 2009

Tired now...

...and really rather more inclined to write stories, daydream, or sleep than bother with this stuff,

but here's Nine Deuce's latest. A rebuttal to the claim from some on our side that she sure sounds an awful lot like Anita Bryant.

(On that topic, I can't possibly recommend this post from Natalia Antonova more highly.)

I wouldn't go that far, but I do think that there are some similarities between the kind of asking why that she recommends we do and the kind of asking why that that Freud fellow did, years ago.

I think that as long as we're questioning, we get to also question who's bidding us ask why, and what standpoint the question privileges.

And I think ND is an unusual white knight for "homosexuals", given that she's never said she's queer, yet feels right at home telling kinky queers we're being inappropriate. If she's straight and she's telling us which of us count, that's an age old tactic o' The Oppressor right there.

But I've said all this already in the post that I linked, so onward and upward, my friends.

She talks about uneasiness about kinky parents there, too. She started off pretty damn offensive about this, suggesting no kid should "be around BDSM" as if every kinky parent wanders through the house in a corset and five-inch heels muttering "Slave! Attend me!"

but seems to have backpedaled to "I just don't like the idea of M/s people letting kids know too much about their dynamics."

Now, of course, the idea that just because someone likes kink she parades it in front of her children is vile sewage masquerading as a point. It's the same old same old: those deviants who flaunt it, what will they do to the children?

But what happens if we take her backpedal more seriously than it deserves?

Here in my safe-ish space I'll admit it: I've seen some people claim that their dynamic is OK for their children to know about, as long as they're not fucking in front of the ten-year-old. I've met people who've said they call their partner "Sir" in front of the child, acting as if this is a huge sacrifice because they'd prefer to call him "Master" everywhere and they deserve a cookie for stooping to What Society Requires *siiiiiigh*.

Some people defend this kind of thing by pointing out that it may not wind up all that different from raising their child in a traditional household. And there is some point to that, I think. I don't like the idea of such households myself and think they're probably messed up, but I don't know that any and all traditionalist parents fuck up their kids. I don't feel comfortable asserting that.

But I do feel uneasy about the people who seem to think that not having sex in front of the kids but keeping the power dynamic really obvious is enough. I've heard people say "As long as we also tell little Julia that some households are woman-run or egalitarian, it's all good" and... I'm not convinced.

I mean, I do think some people have naturally dominant or submissive temperaments, and I think kids can pick up on that. So I'm not saying "Don't act like yourselves." But I do think "Daddy is Sir, but Mommy's not Ma'am" sends a message, and I think that's not appropriate.

I know plenty of wonderful kinky parents. But I also have seen kinky parents behave in ways I find deplorable.

So... yeah, I think ND says deplorable nasty shit most of the time. And I think saying that you know that because someone is kinky, her common sense about what's appropriate for her child goes out the window is utter bullshit, and vile and downright evil.

But yeah, no calling daddy Sir for little Vicky either, folks.

22 comments:

devastatingyet said...

Yeah, I'm with you. If we have kids, we'll put the toys in a box that locks and I'll try to make sure the kids don't break in. And Joscelin won't get to call me "Mistress" nearly as much. C'est la vie. You can't have sex on the kitchen counter with kids around and you can't involve them in your d/s dynamic either.

Dw3t-Hthr said...

I will admit that I've been tempted to suggest that these people try observing me with both of my fellows and see if they can figure out which one is my liege. I've mostly refrained because I don't want these creeps taking even more prurient interest in my life than they already have.

Let's see. Monday night I settled in on the right side of the bed with my laptop and spent a few hours playing a computer game while one of the fellows slept next to me, with pauses to occasionally nudge him so he didn't snuggle the computer off my lap. When I went to sleep, we snuggled back to back and the cat sat down by my head and purred loudly.

Last night I settled in on the left side of the bed with my laptop and spent a few hours playing a computer game while one of the fellows slept next to me, with pauses to occasionally nudge him because he snores. When I went to sleep, we snuggled spooning and the cat crawled under the covers and purred loudly.

Which one is the d/s relationship? YOU DECIDE!

Alexandra Erin said...

What hit me reading that post... and I have a comment in moderation about it... is the assumption that BDSM (or even specifically male-dominated D/s relationships) wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the Patriarchy.

I'm not sure that's a valid assumption. I can see the parallels with Patriarchy. I don't think anybody needs them pointed out... but... the world's full of kinks that don't.

I mean, don't think large scale objectophilia is a reflection on the deep-seated Architecturarchal constructs of our society, y'know?

The shapes kinks take is doubtlessly affected by environment, but I don't think the triggers are so simple as "see Daddy push Mommy around, grow up turned on by that". I think it's more on the order of "butterfly flapping wings in Peru".

Alexandra Erin said...

devastatingyet:

I think you just illustrated how trivial the differences between two sexual practices are, when dealing with anything outside of actually practicing them.

ND talks about BDSM being a problem in reference to sexual harassment, but of course she's actually talking about what a problem sexual harassment is. The BDSM is incidental, even if she can't see that.

Same thing with sex and kids, or talking loudly about your sex life in the supermarket, or having sex on the front lawn, or whatever.

Where I see a bit of a grayer area is the concept of "public displays of affection". I mean, couples do kiss in public. They do have pet names for each other. And all of that, of course, can be taken to a completely tasteless extent. I suppose "Sir" instead of "Master" might be an example of toning it down for public, but I have a feeling that to somebody who knows/suspects the fully dynamics of the relationship and has a disapproving attitude, even that and other little things (door-holding and other "courtesy" protocols) might jump out as being OMG THE FACE-RUBBING!, even if they're really the sort of thing that might be in any relationship.

belledame222 said...

dude, she's getting married. Iconoclastically.

Livetta said...

In a fit of levity:

"Which one is the d/s relationship? YOU DECIDE!"

The cat totally owns you all. ;)

More on the topic, though, for me it kind of skirts questions about how much information kids should have on topics of sexuality in general. I definitely agree that the "think of the children!" argument is a string of BS, and that involving kids in the dynamic at hand is more than disastrous... just telling "little Julia that some households are woman-run or egalitarian " doesn't bring it home, illustrate the point, or normalize the variety of healthy ways relationships and sexuality can be approached, and that seems the implied underlying heart of the issue. How does one give kids the information and the tools to think critically about this stuff (whether the relationships are kinky or vanilla, gay or straight), with an eye to the fact that they will one day be, but are not yet, independent beings, when it seems like the only things the culture postulates are extremes?

Trinity said...

Kiya:

"I will admit that I've been tempted to suggest that these people try observing me with both of my fellows and see if they can figure out which one is my liege."

Hee! Yeah, this.

Alexandra Erin:

"I mean, don't think large scale objectophilia is a reflection on the deep-seated Architecturarchal constructs of our society, y'know?"

Oh, but that one's easy. That objectifies women -- literally! Any WS 101 student would get THAT one! :)

"The shapes kinks take is doubtlessly affected by environment, but I don't think the triggers are so simple as "see Daddy push Mommy around, grow up turned on by that". I think it's more on the order of "butterfly flapping wings in Peru"."

Oh, I agree. I don't think seeing D/s dynamics means growing up to love them. I just think that some people really don't understand that there's such a thing as "age-appropriate" and/or "not the kid's business."

The other day I was reading a post on some blog where the woman was like "My daughter has watched me grow from a passive-aggressive, angry woman to a happy and fulfilled slave, and of course I'm fully honest with her about everything," and I just winced.

Even if that's an adult child, that's ridiculous oversharing. I know my parents have a sexuality. I don't, and never have, need/ed to know specifics of their personal life.

I have heard of cases where both adult child and parent are kinky and happen to find it out about one another, and I'm not sure I think that's horribly awful, though it's gotta be awkward.

And I imagine if Mommy or Daddy, say, works for a fetish magazine or something, more information is going to be shared than otherwise would. And I'm not sure that's necessarily horribly damaging. I don't know what I think.

But... like I said, people like "Oh, my daughter's seen how good slavery is for me! :D" lady? Yeaaaah, unless she happened to find it out somehow and you had to come clean, I'm calling that an overshare.

whirlwind said...

*waves hand* Raised in a traditional household, found it fucked up as all hell. In early childhood I was shown that my mother had absolutely no power and that there were rules that said she couldn't leave her marriage even if she'd had the resources to do so. No BDSM in sight, just Jesus. And 9-2 fears BDSMers will make their kids think gender hierarchy is normal? Christianists feel it's imperative to make their kids think gender hierarchy is normal. And 'internal enslavement' has nothing on 'The bible says you're not allowed to divorce'.

So where's her series on religious households? Surely there's more of those in the world, doing more harm and more actively trying to draw people into their lifestyle choice, than there are M/f couples?

What's that, 9-2? You don't think they're as worth writing about as the awful kinky folk?

Well, now.

Dw3t-Hthr said...

I have heard of cases where both adult child and parent are kinky and happen to find it out about one another, and I'm not sure I think that's horribly awful, though it's gotta be awkward.

I wish I could remember more specifics right now, but on soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm a while back there were a couple of discussions from one woman who was basically saying, "I'm pretty sure my teenaged daughter is kinky, how do I point her in the direction of good information without freaking her out?"

Trinity said...

"So where's her series on religious households? Surely there's more of those in the world, doing more harm and more actively trying to draw people into their lifestyle choice, than there are M/f couples?"

*nods*

And yeah, that IS fucked up. I was thinking more along the lines of people who are like "yeah, I know there's these 'feminists' out there, and it's OK with me if my daughter grows up to be one, but I'm a traditionalist and I like it this way."

Which... yeah, skeeves me out, but I'm not sure it's my business.

SnowdropExplodes said...

SD - see my most recent post for an answer to this one. I think kids do pick up on things, but I also think that just saying "well, some women run the household" is a cop-out if the way you treat one another is sending the message that women serve men.

I think I'm going to write a post about this on my own blog, because I've got a lot of different strands I want to try to bring together on it. It will be easier to gather my thoughts on my own space, and maybe possibly make some sense!

Renegade Evolution said...

Mr.E calls me Master Chief...we have a military thing goin' on...

er...it was her assumption that kinky folk were more prone to being OBVIOUS than other people that really annoyed me.

lorelei said...

Yeah, see, the thing with me is, i was raised calling ALL adults "sir" and "ma'am". My mother did that, my father did that--my father often even called my mother, sister, and i "ma'am" because, where i come from, that's just common politeness. You raise your children to show people at least that level of respect. And i'm raising my child (in that respect, if no other : D) the way my parents did because i want a polite kid. But she doesn't see any seriously skewed power dynamic in our relationship--just that we are always very polite, respectful, affectionite people. And if it's Mama's job to do the dishes and (stepfather) Voice's job to take out the garbage, and if Mama occasionally grabs Voice a glass of water, what of it? And if, after a discussion between the two of us on serious issues, Voice makes the final decision or tells me to, what will that teach her? To discuss your problems! At least we've found a way to work our problems and dilemmas without shouting or arguing all the damn time--THAT's unhealthy for children.

Trinity said...

Lorelei: I'm not saying don't raise your kids to say Sir and Ma'am. I'm saying that making it obvious that one person controls everything may not be healthy for kids. They need to see that everyone is valued, and to understand that they are not expected to serve someone unless they choose it.

I think most D/sers are scrupulous about this, but I've met one or two who are really creepy about showing the kids how fulfilling D/s is for them. And that's not age appropriate. (Or relationship appropriate, for that matter.)

lorelei said...

Oh, no, Trinity, i know that's not what you were saying. Sorry, it's pretty late here and i forgot to add the, "That's why nobody ever thinks it's weird when i say 'Yes, Sir' to my husband" part. : )

I have actually never seen these creepy couples. Curious: what do they do that's so creepy? It's late and spooky tonight, gimme something thrilling. ; D

lorelei said...

I guess i just can't imagine how people don't see the heavy line btwn what's appropriate to do in front of children and what's not. Attaching a rope from lore's collar to the coffee table: awesome when the kids aren't there, not so much when they are. Etc. and whatnot.

Trinity said...

I wish I could find this one blog again, but it was very "My daughter has watched me grow from angry free woman to fulfilled slave," and pretty strongly suggested she'd actually had a talk with her kid about it.

Now, could be the kid was an adult and Mom'd been somehow outed, but it really gave me weird vibes.

lorelei said...

Gah. Okay, even if my kid were an adult, i don't know if i'd want to be telling her about my sex life. If she ASKED (again, as an ADULT) i guess i would have to answer honestly, but i can't promise it wouldn't be a heavily edited version of the truth accompanied with a stern, "Honey, what people do in their bedrooms is PRIVATE."

Firefey said...

this is one of those things that i'm torn over as well. on the one hand, the woman who went from being really angry (and was probably obviously unhappy somehow) and is not happy and fulfilled (with atndant obvious changes) may have some explaining to do to currious children. currious adult childeren may get a more indepth answer i guess... but how does one raise a child in that environment without making a mess of things. is it better to be super secertive and pray your kid never find your toys or porn stash? is it better to leave a note addressed to you kid in with said stash as an "if you found this we should talk?" should you just try really hard to have friends with all kinds of relationship dyanmics over for your kids to see and expereince?

it's issues like this that contribute to my standing in the none for me camp when it comes to kids...

Trinity said...

Firefey:

Yeah, I feel the same way actually. I don't want kids, so it's really no skin off my back, but really, I wouldn't know how to handle having them if I did.

I mean... I wouldn't even know how to handle sex questions. Because I'd feel guilty offering the ridiculously heterosexist "and then the daddy puts his thing inside the mommy because they love each other very much" thing.

And I'd never know how much TO say. I'd want to make sure my kids grew up knowing that sexualities of all sorts are OK... but I wouldn't want to say too much and upset them.

And I wouldn't know what to do if my kids found things, either. I mean, I'm not Suzy Nice Pervert or something. I have very violent fantasies that can't really be covered over with "and some people are a little *different*, honey." If they found my writing about certain things it would really not be good.

I'm just glad I don't want kids.

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